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Roy Francis Dvorak - 2009-07-30 03:55:00
I had the fortune to work on 2 projects that were outsourced - one to India and one to Pakistan. The one from Pakistan was brought back to the US so the project could be done correctly. Yes, the code worked, but when it ran, it filled up the Apache error log file. The code was sloppy.
The project from India was more like the proverbial spaghetti code, very little structure to it and the functions contained code that did nothing. So for those companies that did outsource a project to India developed with PHP, how good is the code, and yes it probably works, but did the developers follow any coding standards?
vasya1 - 2009-07-30 04:20:44 - In reply to message 1 from Roy Francis Dvorak
Nope this note follow standarts,
They not know what is standarts
They not know what is clean code
They not know what is bug free code :)
Only 1 from 200-300 know what is it :)
And by the way :) Many indians not develop
They resell and outsorce code to china or other countryes
They good resellers but very bad coders :)
Also 1 thing :)
In USA & Russia many coders make not PHP sites :)
They make next gen sites, on Python, Ruby on Rails and etc lang.
tim wickastrom - 2009-07-30 04:47:33 - In reply to message 2 from vasya1
LOL, yeah and can Sandeep Kadam get them to quit emailing/calling 20 times a week asking me to send work there way?
While we are your at it tell them to leave my skype account alone too!
Ignatius Teo - 2009-07-30 04:52:46 - In reply to message 1 from Roy Francis Dvorak
Or was that "misfortune"? :)
BTW, Pakistan is NOT India, and nor is it part of India, but I get the gist. However, geographical boundaries are not necessarily a determining factor of the overall quality of its programmers.
I've had the pleasure of working with one very good programmer from Chennai, India, and would quite happily hire him again - if he wasn't so busy.
OTOH, we had an outsourcing company, also in Chennai India, tell us that they would have to REWRITE our application (which had been 4 years in the making) FROM SCRATCH! The reason: it was "too hard" for their programmers to follow - which really meant they couldn't follow our OO/MVC design architecture. But, I suppose, at US$10/hr (their asking rate), you'll generally get what you pay for.
Unfortunately with outsourcing (to ANY company - be it local or foreign), the onus of setting and enforcing standards compliance and quality control lies with YOU the employer. After all, you ARE paying for the service, so it's only fair that you set the bar, which they, the service provider, HAVE to meet.
What we've done in the past is give them a small piece of the project to complete first and see if they can cut the mustard and pass muster. Once you establish their capability, then progressively give them a larger slice. Generally speaking, outsourcing an entire project to an "unknown" is a both a risky and potentially expensive proposition.
Whether you're outsourcing to local or foreign companies, the same basic rules of good business practices and due diligence applies.
vasya1 - 2009-07-30 04:56:18 - In reply to message 3 from tim wickastrom
This not good :)
But sometimes i'm meet good Indian coders & designers :)
This possible, in hundred of resellers :-D
vasya1 - 2009-07-30 05:03:35 - In reply to message 4 from Ignatius Teo
4 years for site? o_O
Or you mean other software :)
I'm just now complete alone Social network in 2 month :-D
So 4 years for site hear horrible :)
Yup sometimes you can found good Indian coders,
But this is little from all Indians :)
And you a little wrong :)
Geographical boundaries is necessary :)
Like Russian is a lazy :-D
I'm not hide this fact :)
We can not make some code, many days :)
But on deadline we make all :)
And we not like documentation writing :)
So this is necessary.
This is just country mentality.
Manuel Lemos - 2009-07-30 05:41:38 - In reply to message 4 from Ignatius Teo
Good point, Ignatius. People should always double check what they get, especially when the prices are too low. On the other hand, low prices does not mean low quality.
I am not an expert in economy, but what I was told is the Indian currency is not strong mainly because Indian is not strong in exporting commodities and manufactured good. So they make it up in services.
China is stronger in manufactured goods also by reasons related with the value of they currency. That does not mean all manufactured good from China are weak. Even Apple iPhone is made in China.
Anyway, with weak currency, a payment in foreign currency is worth a lot of money in India local currency. So they can take low payments and it is still a lot of money for them.
Another aspect of India being preferred for outsourcing services like software development and call center, is because English is an official language. That is convenient to develop software, because most languages like PHP have a syntax and commands in English, but also to negotiate with foreign customers in English.
I can understand why people from other non-English speaking countries feel a bit jealous of India getting most of the attention as outsourcing market.
But that should be no reason to be upset and generalize, as if outsourced work from India is of low quality. You just need to be cautious before you close any deals and follow both Sandeep and Ignatius recommendations.
Ignatius Teo - 2009-07-30 05:50:36 - In reply to message 6 from vasya1
It was one developer and a very large application. :)
Look you obviously have a bee in your bonnet about Indian programmers and I'm genuinely sorry you feel that way.
The only thing I can suggest is to raise your own bar and make your line longer. And I would say this to Indians and non-Indians alike...
Learning to write better code... documentation... English... is a good start. ;)
vasya1 - 2009-07-30 06:10:02 - In reply to message 8 from Ignatius Teo
No i'm not feel self as bee in bonnet.
I'm just not like bad coders, in each country,
I'm know in India have good coders, But only a part, small part.
I'm know have bad coders in other country :)
But how is say correct :)
Say it looks like only in India so many resellers :)
They just try to get money and not make some :)
Just resell, as broker :)
Sometimes it not very bad, But when resell chain is big, all get fault.
And there is another problem :)
Why many freelancers not like Indian.
They resellers, and get contracts, but not do it, just resell the lowest prices. And the lovest game of Indian resellers dumping prices for minimal price.
I'm know how write documentation :)
But this is our Country problem :-D
We just lazy, and if possible we not write :)
German problem is very pedantic ppl
Sometimes is good, sometimes bad :)
Each country have self problem :)
This is mentality.
Suman Debnath - 2009-07-30 18:32:14 - In reply to message 1 from Roy Francis Dvorak
From my experience, almost everybody who had a bad experience with outsourcing was looking for the cheapest deal available. You can go to any freelancing site and see people pricing dozen hour tasks at 50-100 dollars. Even in India, that kind of money does not buy you much. A question for you; I know people who charge 25 euros or more every hour for PHP work and never had a complaint about quality. Would you work with them?
This is the same situation that existed in the 70's with Japanese cars/electronics and recently Chinese manufacturing. The providers get very low prices and the resources they hire for the job has to be cheap - for them to make a profit. Eventually some will move to a different price bracket and their quality will improve.
Another thing, I personally have 'fixed' atrocious code in many projects done by American and European developers who probably charged three times as much. I suppose poor code is available everywhere and at any price :)
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